Submission - obedience

I believe that submission equals Trust but also RESPECT. I really believe that Trust and Respect go hand and hand. I feel my horses work better when they learn to trust me but that involves respect.

An example......I have a new horse in to train. He tries to run you over when you are walking him, he could not lunge, and basically, never looked to the handler/rider for direction. He had his own direction. So, I had to train so that he would respect me and then he trusted that I put him in a good place everytime I handle him.

I suppose it depends on how you ask for respect/trust that is the real issue. Does that make sense?

Hi,

My idea on this is that submission, as an equestrian term, is an unfortunate term, because it has nuances in its meaning that can be misconstrued, and are totally misconstrued in our modern times.

But I agree with the idea of willingness and cooperation since for me it is simply the horse's "permeability" to the aids.

Trust and respect lead to submission, but are not it.

Andy

I agree with all possible misconceptions about the term submission, especially with all the non equestrian connotations: religion, slavery and so on... Maybe we could try a kind of scale...
1. Calm
2. Trust
3. Respect
4. Interest - concentration
5. Willingness - cooperation
6. Permeability achieved

Something like that... I think someone a long time ago said Calm, ahead-forward and straight... :-)

Ahead - forward and straight could maybe be inserted between point 5 and 6?

Message édité par: Delespaux, à: 2007/02/08 09:04

This subject is very interesting to me. I like the idea of a scale of submission because some of what I was writing and thinking about does seem to follow a scale. It seems to me that true submission where the horse allows his body and muscles to easily go where ever the rider takes him with total trust in the rider's leadership has to be built on respect, as Gigi wrote.

The last part of the above quote-- about whether or not submission transfers to a new rider-- what do you think about that? Does that come from attaining trusting submission with one rider and horse and then the trust of the horse is easier to give to new riders?

Post edited by: ZinniaZ, at: 2007/02/08 13:31

Thanks Gloria for this interesting topic. I think that a horse that is trusting his rider will more easily trust another rider but... trust is something that is easily, quickly broken. On another hand, a horse who's NOT trusting his rider will not be easy to reassure and THIS will take time to sort out, much more than to break the trust relationship!

The quality or state of willingly carrying out the wishes of others: acquiescence, amenability, amenableness, compliance, compliancy, deference, obedience, submissiveness, tractability, tractableness.

This is one of the definitions as per the Thesaurus. I rather think of submission as stated here. To carry out the "wishes" of others. Just a thought.

I remember my school horses. They were very obedient BUT it took the correct aids for them to respond. One would have no problem with answering a request of a more advanced rider. When a beginner rode this same horse, he would take control until the rider learned how to use the proper aids. It is very interesting how a horse can sense a rider’s ability the moment a rider sits in the saddle. I give them more credit then scientists do. They are very smart intuitive animals.

Hi,

Permeability/submission definitely depends on the "correctness" of the rider's aids and therefore on the rider. I agree that a horse knows as soon as a rider "plugs themselves in" (or doesn't!) when they sit on its back.

Andy

Dear Vincent,
That someone a long time ago was a great French General,a Commandant at Saumur and a pupil of both Comte d'Aure and Monsieur Baucher namely General Alexis Francois L'Hotte who said "Calme,en avant et droit".I hope I have spelled the words correctly.A great man indeed.
With regards,
Sandy Dunlop.

Indeed Sandy! You're right to mention it (but notice I added a smiley after the citation, it was a kind of gentle provocation!)
My "worry" with this statement is that there are missing links. What conditions to be calm? Trust and respect are essential. To be ahead (en avant) the horse has first not to be restrained in self carriage and to be straight... OMG that's too long!
Honestly, when looking around, how many horses are REALLY "calme, en avant et droit". It seems simple but seldom achieved. How frequently can we observe riders under the supervision of a teacher trying to achieve a shoulder in or some other lateral work with a horse that is tensed because of the lack of independence of the aids...

Dear Vincent,
The 'missing links'are indeed interesting.We will never live long enough to master horsemanship in it's entirety,and must therefore stand on the shoulders of those gone before.In the French school it all begins in the mouth.For this reason will you allow me to quote Captain Etienne Beudant twice:
" When the hand with it's delicate insinuations induces relaxation of the jaw,all other muscles relax,because the horse,inspired with confidence,entrusts himself to his rider" and:
" True balance is manifested by lightness of the mouth.There can be no resistance or contraction when this state of affairs exists"
When we have balance as a result of lightness,associated with activity in the haunch we will have engagement (of the legs or pelvis or one more than the other,at our will),the ensemble being ridden under the conditions of a straight horse on circles as well as straight lines .Then,as Jean Saint-Fort Paillard said, this state of affairs should become the physical manifestation of a psychological attitude in the horse.Surely submission will be a part of this type of riding without worrying about it?
With regards,
Sandy D.