Questions on Shoulder-in

Hi Sandy,

Good to know there's someone here!!

As I use my inside hip/shoulder lightly back to aid the shoulder-in, then I use the inside weight to keep the bend and my weight through the outside stirrup to guide the shoulder off the track (my outside hip being forward by the same amount that my inside hip is back).

I would use the same system on a circle, paying particular attention to the hindquarters (it always seems too easy to loose them on a circle) and using the weight down through my outside stirrup to 'guard' against the potential of the quarters swinging off the circle which would loose the benefit of the shoulder-in.

What do you think of the benefit of shoulder-in on a circle, I have found it to be most beneficial but have been 'warned' against it by some trainers in the past??

Yours Trudi

Hello Trudi,
I enjoyed your post!It sure is good to know there's someone out there too!I didn't know what folk were interested in.On the premise that one should keep one's hips and shoulders parallel to the horse's hips and shoulders I agree with the rider's inside shoulder back,provided the outside one is taken forwards as well.My hips stay where they are.On a straight line my horse will weight it's outside shoulder,and to assist my horse,I will weight my outside seat bone.On a circle,however,my horse will weight it's inside shoulder and I will weight the inside seat bone.In a transition from circle to straight line I shift from inside to outside.I like shoulder-in on a circle to supple the inside shoulder.If transitions are ridden,on the same circle,from shoulder-in to counter shoulder-in to renvers to travers(with the weight aid to the inside of the *circle*,and not necessarily the bend, in all 4 movements)then all 4 quarters can be suppled individually.Would you agree?
My best for the season,
Sandy.

Hi Sandy,

Well I'm interested in anything that makes me think! Thanks to your eloquent post I have been thinking! Whilst I may not be able to be so succinct, trust that my intentions are the best!

Ah, it's always interesting to be in agreement over the fundamentals, a good place to start. I find that the hardest part for students to absorb is the feel of connecting with the outside shoulder. So often they have been taught to 'bring' the inside shoulder off the track by 'guiding' with the inside rein and 'limiting' with the outside rein. As the horse (due to inside bend and the controlling nature of the outside wall/fence) feels an inclination towards the outside then the rider feels the urge to 'pull' the inside rein which results in a neck/head bend which will hardly ever stand the chance of becoming shoulder-in.

This is the reason that I use the turning of the body (hip/shoulder axis) as my aid. As I change my weight then the horse seeks to follow it.

I have found that the weighting of the outside stirrup results in a better balance for the horse on a straight line but also through a turn, it also frees up the riders possibilities of using the inside seatbone when necessary (say on a circle).

I use shoulder-in, travers and renvers (oh renvers is particularly helpful) on both a circle and a square. Not only does it highlight the problem areas for the horse but also the rider. As one with a 'broken' body I find these exercises exceptional for mobilisation, not only of the body but here as I write, of the brain too!!

Yours Trudi

Hello Sandy,
Good to read from you again. Your question is a difficult question because, in my opinion, there is not an answer but a lot of answers. The first thing is to agree on the goals of this exercise. After, we can discuss the manner to act.
We use over all the shoulder in to obtain engagement of the inside leg of the horse and to make it supple. For that you must help the horse to put weight on the inside hindleg and prevent him to put weight on the outside shoulder. The use of your aids will depend on the manner the horse reacts. Generally you must move the weight of your body from your outside buttock to the inside one. Move slowly your body towards the outside side. Keep he horse quiet and relaxed, don’t bend too much the neck and give the reins and keep lighter contact as soon as the horse yields the inside rein . As soon as the horse is yielding your inside leg stop using it in order to keep the gait regular in the same cadence. The outside rein prevents the horse from bending too much the neck, drives him on the way you decide to go and receives and regulates the effects of the inside rein …et caetera!

Hello Trudi,
I think the Colonel in the subsequent post has made a good point when he suggests it's important to evaluate the goals of the shoulder-in.He has emphasized the bringing in of the inside hind under the mass,but was it not La Gueriniere who also felt it to supple the outside shoulder?It seems to me that it is also very helpful in makeing a horse 'handier'to the aids(straight/symmetrical)on both sides.I like the square exercize as well.
With regards,
Sandy.

Hi Sandy,
Yes, I'm also grateful to Colonel Carde for putting in a beautifully simple manner the reason that the aids work.It is always good to begin at the beginning and thank you for this opportunity.
My belief is that de la G felt that shoulder-in performed correctly was useful to supple both shoulders, amongst it's other benefits.
So, as we are starting back at the beginning and talking of the essential of the inside hind stepping under the mass, do you think it is important to retain the idea of the 4 track shoulder-in? As someone who started life as a competetive dressage rider this was not held highly in esteem. Now that I have my reins in one hand and my classical reading material in the other (so to speak) I seek to find the perfection of the four track whilst avoiding loosing the quarters. Can we truly utilise the shoulder-in on three tracks, or will it always fall short? Is it better to seek a three track with no loss of the quarters or risk the perfection of four tracks and potential loss of the quarters.

Yours Trudi

Hi,

A few thoughts on this subject

The aspirin of equitation comes in many shapes and sizes and can be asked for/obtained in many different ways.

What you try to get and how you ask for it of course depend on what you are trying to achieve through the exercise at that moment. I've seen it done in a multitude of subtly different ways. I would say that in my opinion, if it does not improve balance, engagement and fluidity then it is not doing much good.

I would say that it was more an opposing of diagonal aids, but the lateral aids must still be present.

It is not an end in itself IMO, and definitely not just a geometrical arrangement of the horse.

Another point is that it should be called "shoulders in" :-) Which is why I would tend more to focus on the question of how to control the shoulders in front of the haunches rather than "how to do a shoulder in"

Not much use, sorry.

Andy

How many tracks?
The wider the angle( 4 tracks) the better the benefit on the suppleness of the shoulders, the smallest on the suppleness and engagement of the inside hind leg.
The smallest the angle ( 3 tracks) the better the benefit on the engagement and supplenes of the inside hindleg, the smallest interest on the suppleness of the shoulders.
Diagonal or lateral aids? I think that it is not very important. Which is fundamental is to keep the horse relax and supple during the movement. As soon he is getting stiff (and) or tense the shoulder in is losing all interest.
It is my opinion!

Thanks Andy, yes it's interesting that it is known as shoulder-in not shoulders-in.

Colonel Carde, no wonder then, that it is referred to as the aspirin of equitation. It can help on so many levels and I must remember to apply these thoughts to my training. Thank you. Trudi