Shoulder in

Hello Hanna, I can only give you my personal opinion which has been formed by my understanding and experience of this classical movement under the guidance of two classical dressage teachers. I do not compete as I am not convinced about judging ability and do not have enough time to devote to it. I have seen many horse/rider couples doing "shoulder-in" and being marked well when the horse has been literally pulled and pushed into this movement and basically looks just like a twisted horse. To reply to your points:

1. Shoulder-in the best exercise you can master as it will help straighten your horse, regain balance when a movement is going wrong, help impulsion . . I could go on . . You ask "is it the same thing in competiton as in an exercise" - there is not one shoulder-in as an exercise and a different shoulder-in in a competiton dressage test. The differences arise of course in whether the movement is correctly executed or not and the ability of the judges to judge it accordingly.
2. 3 tracks or 4. I cannot see that this is of importance as long as it is correctly executed, it does depend somewhat on the experience of the horse and rider, the amount of bend through the horse's body will determine whether you work on 2, 3 or 4 tracks. I would not ask a young horse to work 4 tracks for example. Keeping the incurvation is also important for the quality of the movement which could degrade just into a sideways movement of no value (gymnastically speaking) for the horse.
Kind regards,
Valerie

Quote:a sideways movement of no value (gymnastically speaking) for the horse.

Hello Valerie,
I enjoyed your posting.The thought occurred to me that when does a sideways movement become without value,fom a gymnastic standpoint,and in what bend?One hears this warning, but what substantiates it?
My best,
Sandy.

"Shoulder-in deteriorating into a sideways movement without value (gymnastically speaking) for the horse"

Hello Sandy, just from my own experience, this happens when the rider and the horse try to work on 4 tracks without having mastered correct movement on 2 and 3 tracks. We humans often want to go faster than the music! On 4 tracks the degree of bend is just a bit more pronounced (I do not mean neck bend (never!) but incurvation from poll to tail), the interior posterior has to work harder to come forward and under the body providing the impulsion for the movement. Keeping the incurvation, impulsion and cadence in a coherent smooth rhythm is no mean feat! If you manage a longside of the manège like this then you have a really relaxed horse and rider in a moment of harmony. It falls apart if you and your horse have not worked gradually up to this point on 2 and 3 tracks. By "falls apart" I mean it is no longer of gymnastic interest because you may lose incurvation, the horse may "fall onto" the outside shoulder and so the interior hind moves with less amplitude and just makes a bitty step to the side but not really under the body and pushing forward. I wish somebody had filmed me "falling apart", that would be much easier than trying to put words around it! Working with your horse in-hand in shoulder-in on 2,3 and 4 tracks is to be much recommended as you can see how he moves his body and the effort required of muscles and suppleness of the posterieurs needed. The ridden form then comes more easily to both the horse and his rider. It's such a beautiful movement when you can ride it with the horse holding himself in the movement, I believe that's where lightness is achieved. Until the next time, best wishes, Valerie

"Shoulder-in deteriorating into a sideways movement without value (gymnastically speaking) for the horse"

Hello Sandy, just from my own experience, this happens when the rider and the horse try to work on 4 tracks without having mastered correct movement on 2 and 3 tracks. We humans often want to go faster than the music! On 4 tracks the degree of bend is just a bit more pronounced (I do not mean neck bend (never!) but incurvation from poll to tail), the interior posterior has to work harder to come forward and under the body providing the impulsion for the movement. Keeping the incurvation, impulsion and cadence in a coherent smooth rhythm is no mean feat! If you manage a longside of the manège like this then you have a really relaxed horse and rider in a moment of harmony. It falls apart if you and your horse have not worked gradually up to this point on 2 and 3 tracks. By "falls apart" I mean it is no longer of gymnastic interest because you may lose incurvation, the horse may "fall onto" the outside shoulder and so the interior hind moves with less amplitude and just makes a bitty step to the side but not really under the body and pushing forward. I wish somebody had filmed me "falling apart", that would be much easier than trying to put words around it! Working with your horse in-hand in shoulder-in on 2,3 and 4 tracks is to be much recommended as you can see how he moves his body and the effort required of muscles and suppleness of the posterieurs needed. The ridden form then comes more easily to both the horse and his rider. It's such a beautiful movement when you can ride it with the horse holding himself in the movement, I believe that's where lightness is achieved. Until the next time, best wishes, Valerie

Thank you,Valerie,for your comments.Does the horse's spine from the wither back allow for a great deal of incurvation or is it slight? May I ask your opinion of a second point? I understand your disapproval of an inside hind which does not step under enough but do you also feel that an inside hind which crosses in front of the outside hind to have lost gymnastic value as well?
My regards,
Sandy.

Good morning Sandy, no the horse's spine from the wither back does not allow for a great deal of incurvation, it is slight in most cases, I say in most cases because most of us don't pay enough attention to evolving suppleness of the lumbar region - the horses I train on from time to time are extraordinary in their spinal flexibility, sometimes I have the impression they are not bone! I have found that getting, and keeping, the incurvation comes from the way you use your inside thigh and the outside rein, once he is in the movement going from inside thigh to outside rein, the inside rein needs to be relaxed slightly, if you don't and you keep the same tension on the two reins, or pull even ever so slightly your inside hand backwards, you will end up with too much neck bend which leads to a weighted outside shoulder which you don't want.

When he steps under and over with the inside hind leg in this movement he will generally cross over the outside hind leg, this obliges more of a push (impulsion) in the forward/sideways movement, nothing to disapprove of there! I have found that they need to be totally confident in their own body balance and equally comfortable with the change our body puts on theirs in any movement. We riders don't always acknowledge this. Best regards, Valerie

Good morning Sandy, no the horse's spine from the wither back does not allow for a great deal of incurvation, it is slight in most cases, I say in most cases because most of us don't pay enough attention to evolving suppleness of the lumbar region - the horses I train on from time to time are extraordinary in their spinal flexibility, sometimes I have the impression they are not bone! I have found that getting, and keeping, the incurvation comes from the way you use your inside thigh and the outside rein, once he is in the movement going from inside thigh to outside rein, the inside rein needs to be relaxed slightly, if you don't and you keep the same tension on the two reins, or pull even ever so slightly your inside hand backwards, you will end up with too much neck bend which leads to a weighted outside shoulder which you don't want.

When he steps under and over with the inside hind leg in this movement he will generally cross over the outside hind leg, this obliges more of a push (impulsion) in the forward/sideways movement, nothing to disapprove of there! I have found that they need to be totally confident in their own body balance and equally comfortable with the change our body puts on theirs in any movement. We riders don't always acknowledge this. Best regards, Valerie

Thank you again,Valerie.May I enquire of you how you use your weight aids,in this movement,in three or four tracks,but as well when you ride a circle or a straight line? I hear many just say "I just sit in the middle".
Thanks,
Sandy.

Hello again, weight aids in shoulder-in on 3 or 4 tracks:
Shift of your body weight across to the outside into the direction in which you are going, this starts in the spine down through the hipjoint and into the foot. At the same time, discontinuous inside thigh pressure in cadence with the horse moving over. Calf and heel aid only if necessary. (By shift I do not mean sliding across the saddle. Do not drop your outside hip, if you do, your inside hip will come up, you will break at the waist and tend to tip your inside shoulder downwards to the inside). If all this is not working together and a rider is "just sitting in the middle" then I don't know what sort of shoulder-in this becomes!

Weight aids on a straight line: Can't say that I'd call this a weight aid as such but it is a way of marrying your body with the horse's to move forward and walk as "one". He needs to be "around" your inside thigh in a straight line. So slightly more pressure applied from your inside thigh, a rein adjustment that adjusts his head very slightly to the inside, what the french call "le pli" (the feeling here is contact on the inside rein, on the outside rein contact and tension, this tension is normal). Let your hip bones follow the walk movement of the horse.

Weight aids on a circle: weight is from inside thigh down to foot with inside thigh pressure to keep the incurvation (calf and heel only if necessary as a reminder), subtle rotations towards the inside of your shoulders which puts sufficient pressure on the outside rein to help him turn. Avoid tipping your inside shoulder in. To increase the size of the circle, you keep your inside thigh pressure and shoulder rotations but weight the outside hip to foot.

So that's how I use my weight. I never use spurs, no need, horses are very, very sensitive to weight aids . . . if we allow them to be. A great exercise in walk is 4 steps of shoulder-in, then straight into 4 or 5 steps of half-pass (where the weight aids and shoulder orientation are the opposite) and back into shoulder-in. If that exercise slides along with no change in cadence then you are in tune!
Best wishes and happy riding, Valerie

Hello again, weight aids in shoulder-in on 3 or 4 tracks:
Shift of your body weight across to the outside into the direction in which you are going, this starts in the spine down through the hipjoint and into the foot. At the same time, discontinuous inside thigh pressure in cadence with the horse moving over. Calf and heel aid only if necessary. (By shift I do not mean sliding across the saddle. Do not drop your outside hip, if you do, your inside hip will come up, you will break at the waist and tend to tip your inside shoulder downwards to the inside). If all this is not working together and a rider is "just sitting in the middle" then I don't know what sort of shoulder-in this becomes!

Weight aids on a straight line: Can't say that I'd call this a weight aid as such but it is a way of marrying your body with the horse's to move forward and walk as "one". He needs to be "around" your inside thigh in a straight line. So slightly more pressure applied from your inside thigh, a rein adjustment that adjusts his head very slightly to the inside, what the french call "le pli" (the feeling here is contact on the inside rein, on the outside rein contact and tension, this tension is normal). Let your hip bones follow the walk movement of the horse.

Weight aids on a circle: weight is from inside thigh down to foot with inside thigh pressure to keep the incurvation (calf and heel only if necessary as a reminder), subtle rotations towards the inside of your shoulders which puts sufficient pressure on the outside rein to help him turn. Avoid tipping your inside shoulder in. To increase the size of the circle, you keep your inside thigh pressure and shoulder rotations but weight the outside hip to foot.

So that's how I use my weight. I never use spurs, no need, horses are very, very sensitive to weight aids . . . if we allow them to be. A great exercise in walk is 4 steps of shoulder-in, then straight into 4 or 5 steps of half-pass (where the weight aids and shoulder orientation are the opposite) and back into shoulder-in. If that exercise slides along with no change in cadence then you are in tune!
Best wishes and happy riding, Valerie