more vocabulary issues

i apologize about the second "appuyer" that i mispelled into an adjectival form (interesting :))

Well done Madeleine !
How can 'appuyer'be related to half-pass?I understand it when related to 'leaning' in English,or 'Appui',to lean.It seems to apply to the contact in the Austro-Hungarian tradition where a horse is never in TRUE self carriage but always "on the aids" or "through" and permeable(durchlassigkeit):the horse is collectable but always leans a little nevertheless.In the French tradition TRUE self carriage is asked for through 'Legerete'or lightness brought about by mobilization of the jaw so that the horse is ALWAYS collected,and not just collectable.It seems to me that Durchlassigkeit or permeability is irrelevant or untranslatable in the French tradition,in which self carriage becomes a physical expression of a psychological attitude,and based entirely on lightness and activity.
With regards,
Sandy.

Hello Madeleine,
"Side Pass" is a Western term for "Full Pass" where the horse is almost straight but flexed at the poll toward the direction of travel,moving directly sideways and looking at where he is going.Unfortunately it is often,incorrectly,ridden as a leg yield with the horse looking from where he has come as he steps sideways.In leg yield the bend is the reverse of "Full Pass".The bend in "Full Pass" is the same as for "Half Pass" but with little or no forward movement.The question that would interest me would be whether "Full Pass" could be ridden at trot without it becomeing "Half Pass".Perhaps from the Piaffer?
With regards,
Sandy.

That's a really difficult matter! Maybe more educated people will rectify... but my feeling is that the leg yield is a quite recent notion (as new movement)... The term "yield" is essential... If the yield is understood (by the horse).. with a horse in balance (self carriage) the place of your leg is essential. Behind, the haunches will react, in front it is to the shoulders to react and in between... the horse's body... You "push lateraly" with the leg which is synonym of "Appuyer"... whatsoever the push if the horse is relaxed you can "turn" its head from where he is coming or to where he is going...Maybe... that's a matter for Andy...

Message édité par: Delespaux, à: 2007/06/08 22:33

hi there !

thank you sandy !
what you're saying is very true and very interesting.
i think what is interesting is that the french term contains the idea of the horse leaning against the leg (what is the opposite of the leg yield where is escaping the leg).
but the "pass" cannot be understood as what is a success ; like to pass an exam !? i was just wondering ! (because if you look up "to pass" in a thesaurus, it is very interesting)
or is it only the simple movement ?
maybe it does contain the "pass throught the leg"-idea of the movement ?

vincent, how do we call an "appuyer" in german ?

thank you very much - vielen dank - merci beaucoup

madeleine.

Hello Vincent,
The practice of leg yield seems controversial,however what you describe becomes a nice transition to ride,in all three gaits;say leg yield left to half-pass right WITHOUT any change of bend or flexion.What becomes much more difficult is the counter change of hand WITH a change of bend and flexion between the movements;say half-pass left to half-pass right.The 'zig-zag' half-pass.In the canter it requires a flying change of leg.Very difficult to maintain regularity of gait,but helps the rider to practise weight aids.It's lots of fun.
Sandy.

Hi Sandy,

I can imagine the difficulty and the high fun of it but I am not as good as that... For the moment and with the horses I ride, I prefer reaching a perfect obedience to a leg yield than ask for bendings that will contract them. I am not saying that bending is contracting but for the horses I ride now, yes. Constructing is always easier than deconstructing and reconstructing...

For Maddy: in Dutch it is called "appuyement" but in German, I do not know... My knowledge of this langage is quite poor.

Message édité par: Delespaux, à: 2007/06/10 11:12

Hello everybody,
When I want to make a translation, I Use "the international Horseman's Dictionary" of JA Allen which explains all technical words in English, French, German, Italian and Spanish.
So, in Greman, "appuyer " is tranlated by "Die Traversalverschiebung, die Travaersale, or der Halbtravers".
Best regards, yves KATZ.

Hi,

Fascinating indeed.

I cannot claim to know the origin of appuyer. I would tend to think of it as "pressing" against the leg as has already been said.

I will try and find out!

But then neither do i know the origin of the term half/full pass. But it does make me think of a "grey" area in terminology that I think I found when looking at the Eisenberg book "l'art de monter à cheval" (1750?)- the book shows a distinct progression in training, and shows horses in the half-pass attitude, and talks of "passager sur la volte" "passager le loong d'une barrière" etc. Also nowhere does it use the words "appuyer", and when talking of "passage" it calls it "Passege".

So maybe the origin of the "pass" is from what seems the initial way of talking about half pass in French?

Andy

Hi andy thanks for the anwer... I won't be able to connect to Internet properly before the 7th Of July... I am taveling a lot during thid period... My absence is thus surely not a lack of interest about that matter! Please go on! I would like to see the "English speaking corner" more active!! Your perception of the self-carriage is from my point of view... ESSENTIAL!
Bye for now...