more vocabulary issues

vocabulary

Maître Ecuyer = pathologie commune en dressage. Après Oliveira on a assité
à une véritable épidémie. Impossible à soigner, ils finissent à Sèvres comme Maître Etalon.

hi everyone !

i would not like to do what we call in french "une étymologie populaire" (a fake, scientific-looking etymology) but maybe "appuyer" come from the movement La Guerinière was criticizing "the appuyer la tête au mur" where the horse walk paralell to the wall, his head facing it. La Guérinière was recoommending the "croupe au mur" what is the appuyer ? but i'm not sure of the bending he is describing in the "croupe au mur".

"appuyer" means to "lean against something" but also "to help yourself by using something" : the wall. Now we first think to the leg, but if you look at the definitions in XIXth century dictionnary they all say "appuyer" : short for "appuyer la tête au mur".

What would explain why the "appuyer/leaning" is not present neither in german nor in english, because when the word spread again (when?) the movement of "the head against the wall" was not done much more. ?? that is a hypothesis !

What we do know would by saying that "appuyer" comes from the horse "leaning against" the leg, is somehow a re-enrichment of meaning.

But maybe i am completely wrong...! i did not bring my etymological dictionnary when i moved in the US...

I wonder how Newcastle calls a half-pass...if he refers to this movement.

As for Eisenberg, it is weird...Maybe it did give the full/half pass term in english...
Anyway, if what i saif is correct, it seems that it's the La Guérinière one that survive in french.

Is there an etymologist in this forum ?

Besides dr M. Hunter?

Cheers !

Madeleine.

Back to the topic:

Going back to the militairy cavallery; there were 2 movements FULL-PASS and HALF-PASS related to this topic.

The FULL-PASS can only be done from HALT. The horse does not move forward nor backward, but just moves lateral (sideway) parallel to his body. The movement ends with HALT, the horse is straightend forward. This movement is original the FULL-TRAVERS or FULL-PASS.

The HALF-PASS the horse moves forward and steps sideway (moves lateral) with respect to his body and moves according a diagonal line or line parallel to the diagonal line. This is called: HALF-TRAVERS, HALF-PASS, TRAVERSALE or APPUYEMENT.

Nowadays when the movement is done along the wall with tete la mur,it is called TRAVERS. On a diagonal it is called APPYEMENT or TRAVERSALE.

Shoulder out was also called TRAVERS in German speaking countries.

W

Post edited by: Goofy44, at: 2008/09/22 21:40

Very interesting, thank you !

Hello Madeleine and Wim,
This concept of 'leaning'on something interests me when the issue of rein contact is discussed in the same vein as " Appui ".It was Jean Claude Racinet who interested me in this.Appui implies leaning,does it not? From your discussions on half-pass it does.In 'French' riding,in the finished horse,there should be NO LEANING.There must be true self carriage.In 'German' riding there is 'permeability'which is called 'durschlassigheit'where,even in the finished horse,it will always,to some degree or other,have 'appui'or be leaning,even if only a very slight amount.As Monsieur Racinet points out,and I agree with him,there is therefore a difference between 'durschlassigheit'and 'legereter'if we are to accept de Kerbrech's views of a half tension in the reins being able to induce relaxation of the horse's jaw with mobilization of it's tongue and the true self carriage that this will entail.Is this off the topic of 'Appyuer'? I am trying to learn some French!!
Good luck,
Sandy.

Hi Sandy,

I entirely agree with the no-leaning... But I think that the "appui" part in the appuyer refers to the inside leg.
But if you want to learn french, yes "appuyer" means "to lean", but not only.
"Un appui", the noun is more refering to an help ; like a support.
So the apppuyer refers maybe more to a supporting posture than a leaning one. Better, no ? Then, why not refering to the hand also.
It can also get a more abstract definition, as an help.

As for the Durchlassigkeit, I would have translated it by throughness. It's very close to permeability, but (maybe only for me) it's more easy to relate to. And, if it's through, there is no leaning, the aids are flowing through the body of the horse and of the rider (??!)... I don't know ! But german riders do have the Uberstreichen, when you release contact to show that the horse is working in self carriage. It is still in dressage tests by the way ?

Best,