Reverse Pirouettes

Hello Sandy,
It is not only a question but a machine gun of questions … !
As for me I practice reverse pirouette as a suppling exercise but in combination with normal pirouettes. Why? Because in the reverse pirouette the horse gives a good extension of neck and head, far and low, but lowering the withers. He falls on the forehand. And the direct flexion makes the engagement easier, more than the counter flexion.
On the contrary the normal pirouette raises the withers and makes the back round. For these reasons the chain ( sequence?) of these two exercises is one of the best to get the horse back more supple

Thank you Colonel,
I wonder if I misunderstand?When I ask for a Reverse Pirouette with diagonal effects I ask for a lateral flexion, at the poll, on an elevated neck to the same side as the haunch is rotating towards as taught by Fillis.My horse will give me a Direct Flexion as well when I do this.If I release my inside leg at the girth a little,without change in the outside leg, the reverse pirouette will transition to Full Pass,and if I restore my inside leg and apply the indirect rein to the neck my horse will do a normal pirouette on the haunch.The spinal bend is the same in all three movements,and I can feel the wither rise in all three,and I feel the croup lower in all three.My weight aid is to the inside in all three.In the first movement there is rotation around the shoulders,and in the second there is sideways movement and then the rotation is around the haunch. Sandy.

Sandy: I have always executed "turns on forehand" by flexing the horse at the POLL only to the left and then by using my left leg ask the horse to step right around his forehand. It is more like a working leg yield.

A reverse pirouette, I would think that if you were doing a true pirouette the horse bends left, flexes at the poll left and move around to the left. I am not so sure what a reverse pirouette is. Could you give me an example in a book (American)?

I work with turns on forehand, turns on haunches, full pass which for me is more like half pass without much forward movement. I believe all these exercises free up the horses shoulder and hip. Even for moments it may seem the horse puts more weight up front, especially young horses, I really feel value in "stretching" the shoulder and hip (hind leg) laterally which all these exercises do. I use them on young horses when they are able to understand at walk first...........it is easier for them to understand and then proceed at different paces.

Good riding to you,
gigi

Hello Gigi,
Thank you for posting.What you have descibed in your first paragraph is a Reverse Pirouette,or turn on the forehand with "lateral effects".The withers will lower.If this movement,by training is advanced so that the horse is laterally flexed at the poll,say to the left,and the right outside leg is activated to ask the haunch to move to the LEFT,and the horse rotates around the shoulders to it's left you will have a Reverse Pirouette to the left with "diagonal effects"(left rein,right leg.The left leg at the girth for the horse to rotate around.In this case the wither will rise as the croup lowers.By altering the intensity of these aids,but not their position,Full Pass or a normal pirouette on the haunch will result to the left.In fact you could ask for a canter depart as well.There is no more room on this post,Gigi,so I will give you the reference on a second Post. With regards,Sandy.

Hello Gigi again,
For a reference to what I described in my last post you may enjoy to read "Breaking and Riding"by James Fillis,6th. Edition,page78(Reverse pirouette,turn around the forehand,with LATERAL effects.Left rein,left leg),page79(Reverse Pirouette,turn around the forehand,with DIRECT effects.Equal rein and straight neck together with left leg)and page80(Reverse pirouette,turn around the forehand with DIAGONAL effects.Right rein,to obtain the lateral flexion, and left leg behind the girth, with the right leg at the girth for the horse to rotate around to it's right).It is the last turn, with the diagonal effects, that is of the most interest gymnastically,because the wither will rise and the croup will lower.There are easily understood pictures in Fillis's book.
Safe riding,and thanks for your interest.Sandy.

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for this stimulating post.

You know I have never tried a reverse pirouette, so I will do that this afternoon whilst I'm playing around on my horse. I can see what you do and that it could be interesting in combination with the full pass and normal pirouette.

Very different from the turn on the forehand effectively. Will report back on what I find, if it is interesting enough!!

Andy

Hi,

Yes I can see the uses. A good way of testing the control of the shoulders (slowing) in all half-pass type movements.

Thanks

Andy

Hello Andy,
I agree, but it also seems to me that all 3 movements,and the transitions between them,are wonderful suppling exercizes for both the front and back ends of the horse.They also stretch the hollow side and loosen the stiff side,and,as such, are a straightening exercize as well.In addition, they are an absolute test,in the presence of good haunch activity, of true lightness in the horse and rider combination,when the lightness is as defined by L'Hotte in 'Questions Equestre',for they require the perfect co-operation of ALL the aids together,to a greater or lesser extent;Seat,leg(s)and rein(s).
With regards,
Sandy.

Hi Sandy,

Further to this thread I am finding this very interesting at trot (more of a haunches out circle)- especially good for an extension after.

Andy

Hello Andy,
Are you then riding a type of reversed volte(a la Gueriniere)with your haunches out on the circle? If so,where is your weight aid?To the inside,or outside?
Regards,
Sandy.