Reverse Pirouettes

Hi Sandy,

Not sure wheher it is a "reverse volt" ( makes me think of a rein back volt!)

But anyway, I would tend to weight the inside (to the bend) stirrup a little, as in all half pass movements. And you?

Andy

Hello Andy,
I was riding this morning and thought of you.The world is getting smaller!!If you were riding a very small circle in haunches out(renvers)it would be a reverse volte(with head to the inside).Either way,small, or large, circle in haunches out(renvers) the horse will carry it's weight to the OUTSIDE SHOULDER.Try to weight the outside (the convex side),and without 'collapsing' your hip on the opposite side,and your horse will find it easy.On a straight line,as for half-pass,what you say is true,because it is the inside haunch that becomes weighted,but the opposite shoulder for the same movement on a circle,as the inside hind leg drives the mass towards the outside shoulder because of the circle.That's my view today.
Thanks for the mental gymnastics,
Sandy.

Hello Andy,
I was riding this morning and thought of you.The world is getting smaller!!If you were riding a very small circle in haunches out(renvers)it would be a reverse volte(with head to the inside).Either way,small, or large, circle in haunches out(renvers) the horse will carry it's weight to the OUTSIDE SHOULDER.Try to weight the outside (the convex side),and without 'collapsing' your hip on the opposite side,and your horse will find it easy.On a straight line,as for half-pass,what you say is true,because it is the inside haunch that becomes weighted,but the opposite shoulder for the same movement on a circle,as the inside hind leg drives the mass towards the outside shoulder because of the circle.That's my view today.
Thanks for the mental gymnastics,
Sandy.

But anyway, I would tend to weight the inside (to the bend) stirrup a little, as in all half pass movements. And you?

Andy

I agree to weight the shoulder of the direction of bend. I feel that when doing a Renvers or Travers no matter if you do them on a circle or straight line the weighted shoulder is the outside one. So if you are doing a left traver it is the right shoulder or doing a right renvers it is the left shoulder.

Your horse follows your weight so that is why I would step into the inner shoulder.

We are probably all saying the same thing?

Dear Gigi,
I wonder if we are indeed saying the same thing?In travers you suggest the weight is carried by the outside shoulder? But you would put your weight to the inside by stepping into the inside shoulder? I think you are correct as far as your weight transfer is concerned,whilst on a straight line because the horse carries more weight to it's inside.Why would you say this when you say the weight is carried by the outside shoulder in travers.
In the circle,in travers,the horse also carries more weight to the inside,but it's in RENVERS on the circle that it carries it's weight to the OUTSIDE shoulder because the inside hind leg,on the circle,only,drives the mass toward the OUTSIDE shoulder.In that situation the rider should weight the outside.On straight lines the horse carries it's weight to the side to which the haunch displacement is made,which the rider should weight(inside).Sandy.

Sandy: I am suggesting this as to how I feel and how I watch others ride a correct travers, renvers.

If you ride a traver on a straight line, what is the most important aspect to make this movement correct? IMO, not allowing the outside shoulder to go off the track of travel. Most people will put the haunches in but allow the shoulders to drift off the track in front. So, although I feel the haunches are weighted inward, the outside shoulder is being overloaded by this inward push of the hip and it is very important to be able to maintain straightness of the outside shoulder, which I feel is taking much of the load. In order to keep the movement correct, one must control the outside shoulder as well as the outside hip.

Gigi,
Aha !I see what you say.Perhaps if the front legs come off the track the rider is asking for too much bend? Or perhaps the inside leg doesn't support enough?Or perhaps the rider leans forwards?Or forgets to look in the direction of travel?
What do you think?
Sandy.

Sandy: I must be short. I am going to a clinic. If the horses front legs come off the line of travel then there is really no bend. It becomes more of a leg yield. To create the bend the horse MUST stay straight with the shoulders. Only then you have bend. I think many people do not execute this movement properly. They are too concerned about the haunches and not enough thought going to the shoulders. I don't think it is postion of rider that is making this happen. It is the thought process that allows this to happen. To do a perfect travers-renvers a rider must think about keeping the shoulders on the line of travel. Just watch how many people do not. Have a good weekend,
gigi

Hi gigi,
In French tradition, travers and renvers (tête au mur, croupe au mur in french) are always done with the outside legs crossing over the inside ones.
Regards,
Hervé

Herve: Yes, the haunches do cross but the shoulders do not. They keep on the line of travel. I think travers and renvers are universal movements done the same way all over the world.

I was just trying to give an opinion that when putting the haunches to left or right, the horse tends to over weight the outer shoulder to a degree and if that shoulder should excape then most likely the rider will have lost a true bend.